soc.history.war.world-war-ii

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:05:58 -0400, kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:

>In article <47fd4267.1034250@news.individual.net>, aspqrz@pacific.net.au
>(Phil McGregor) wrote:
>
>> There is no way the rest of the crew could have been indicted since
>> they would not have had the required mens rhea.
>
> By the way Phil, your entire argument seems to rest on Detmers being
>sure he was going to win the fight. If he had opened fire under a false

Why would you say that?

The line of argument that I have followed is that Detmers lied about
some things, that the story the "Germans" told cannot be regarded as
reliable.

Part of that is to suggest some possible reasons why he may have lied.

One of which is that he committed, knowingly, a war crime and what
that war crime may have been.

There is evidence, cited elsewhere, that he planned to use the
submerged torpedo tubes in the way I suggested, before lowering the
false flag or even after raising a white flag.

Did he do this?

*I* don't know.

But *Detmers* testimony is not reliable for many reasons and cannot be
regarded as the definitive truth.

The fact that the rest of the crew may or may not have backed up
significant elements of what he said is, as I have demonstrated,
irrelevant ... as, apart from the Bridge crew, they wouldn't have been
in a position to actually *see* whether Detmers acted illegally with
regard to the flags or not.

Which is the crux of their possible defence ... lack of mens rhea and
"superior orders" ... which is, as I noted, still allowable despite
the seemingly general ruling of the IMT.

Detmers seems to have planned to act in ways that were pushing the
envelope of legality ... he hints at such in his own book, evidently
... whether he did it because he thought he could win or not, who
knows?

*I* don't.

Detmers was a complex human being, and quite capable of doing things
for complex reasons ... maybe, for all you or I know, he raised a
white flag (if he did) thinking that, "at least I can damage the
bastards" ... in wartime, especially, people do things we would regard
as, charitably, "strange", for reasons that seem good to them at the
time.

All along I have simply pointed out that a) we know Detmers lied about
key things and b) therefore regarding the german testimony as
incontrovertible, 100% accurate, pure, unsullied, truth is ... unwise.

>or white flag and Sydney had survived he would have been liable. I find
>it hard to believe he was sure enough of putting Sydney out of action to
>risk it.

In wartime people do strange things. Indeed, even in peacetime. Who
knows what was going through Detmers head?

In his own book he hints strongly that he planned to attack in just
the way I have suggested if bailed up by an enemy warship.

Did he? Well, only the surviving Bridge crew (if there are any left)
probably really know.

Certainly some of the gun crew thought he'd fired the torpedoes before
opening fire with the guns and were uncertain if he had raised the
German flag first.

> Presumably you think the dodgy bits are before and after the shooting.

The dodgy bits are evidently strewn through the testimony.

>The damage to Sydney tends to bear out the action report. The only

The best lies are those that are closest to the truth ... except in
the one respect of the part that is a lie.

>inconsistency in that is as far as I can tell whether or not the Germans
>fired ranging shots or ranging salvos.

Except for the fact that there's no evidence so far that the ship was
on fire from stem to stern, which the Germans claimed. Or that she
exploded, which the Germans also claimed.

And some of the boats seem to have survived intact as well, tho I do
not recall whether the Germans claimed that they had destroyed all of
them or whether people have simply assumed that they did with no
actual evidence.

The evidence found at the wreck site neither confirms nor denies the
possibility of German perfidy, it seems.

The only "evidence" that the Germans, Detmers, was *not* perfidious,
is, in fact, Detmers ... which is the problem I have with the whole
situation.

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au