soc.history.war.world-war-ii

On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:06:40 -0400, eunometic@yahoo.com.au wrote:

>On Mar 21, 2:15 am, asp...@pacific.net.au (Phil McGregor) wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 00:28:32 -0400, eunome...@yahoo.com.au wrote:
>> >On Mar 20, 2:16 am, asp...@pacific.net.au (Phil McGregor) wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:33:14 -0400, "YMC"
>>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >"Phil McGregor" wrote in message
>> >> >news:47e02b4a.1628546@news.individual.net...
>> >> >> How on earth do you *KNOW* as a 'fact' that she was "hit about 150
>> >> >> times" since the only witnesses were German raider crewmen, many of
>> >> >> whom would have not been on deck or, even if they had been, would not
>> >> >> have been in a position to see *all* that happened.
>>
>> >> >Yet, what pausible reason would the crew wish to lie about the Sydney coming
>> >> >too close to the Kormoran and allowing herself to be surprised by a German
>> >> >raiding ship? Did the German ship even possess a good gunnery control system
>> >> >which would allow it to engage the Sydney at distance?
>>
>> >> Detmers (and, by extension, his crew) were suspected of having opened
>> >> fire while still flying a false flag (Dutch) which is a breach of the
>> >> Hague conventions and would have made them pirates, and treatable as
>> >> such.
>>
>> >If that 'breach of the Hague conventions' was true Detmers would have
>>
>> Piracy is more than breaching the Hague conventions, and they wouldn't
>> have had to wait for the end of the war, either.
>>
>
>Over 300 of the survivors of the Kormorant were held POW till 1947 in
>Australia. They were interviewed frequently, at length and in
>isolation. Not one crack or disparity ever appeared in their story.

Indeed? Really?

You seem not to have read the comprehensive, but flawed, report of the
Senate of 1999.

In which it points out serious problems with the interrogation of the
prisoners including the fact that a significant number of them were
allowed to mix together for an extended period ... allowing collusion
... before they were interrogated.

Also you seem to be unaware that the Government reports, such as they
were, in 1942 were dubious of the German statements

And you seem entirely unaware that Detmers changed his story in
several key details over the period of the interrogation ... details
that support the possibility that he lied about when and how he opened
fire.

>No one has spoken up in Germany even when they would have been safe to
>do so in the 60 years since repatriation. Unless the Australians were

Because they were ...

a) seen as national heroes, not piratical murderers

and

b) because most of the crew simply had never been in a position to
know what Detmers ordered done, in what order, and whether the flag
being flown was a White, Dutch, or German one at the time he ordered
the torpedoes launched or the guns to open fire.

>Incidentally I did, in a haze of over work, mix up the engagement of
>HMAS Sydney with the Emden in WW1 of Australia with the action of HMAS
>Sydney with the Kormorant in WW2. I appologise.

Read the Senate report, it's online. It accepts the German stories
DESPITE accepting the fact that their interrogations were severely
flawed, the FACT that Detmers story changed (he lied, perhaps!), the
FACT that the crew (especially the Deck officers, the only ones really
likely to 'know') had a DUTY to lie and 'confound the enemy', and the
fact that they questioned NOT A SINGLE SURVIVOR.

Since this was the FIRST full Inquiry into the loss, it is an amazing
series of admissions and omissions given that, despite them, they
accept the German stories as well, more or less uncritically.

All good reasons for being dubious.

Not for rejecting their testimony outright, but simply being dubious.
Which is and always has been my position.

A forensic examination of the wreck, now it has been found, MAY reveal
the truth of Detmers sequence of events ... or not.

Why , there might even be evidence of a Japanese sub
launched torpedo hit on the opposite side from the Kormoran torpedo
hits ... or sunk Carley floats full of machinegunned survivors


WE SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW ... YET.

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au