soc.history.war.world-war-ii

> >Several. The Stauffenberg plot was in contact with US/UK via a german
> >OSS agent parachuted back to Germany.
>
> Cite?

It was Gisevius

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gisevius

and for MI6 Otto John I think.


>AFAIK, the Allies refused to
> have any official contact with the

any "official" at all I would say. Because that would raise too much
suspicion by the SU and the grave danger of a German/SU peace deal
or armstic.

> Schwarze Kapelle. After the Venlo
> Incident in 1940, they suspect all

that was SD - SS Schellenberg

> such contacts of being Gestapo
> decoys; after 1941, they feared being
> charged with double-dealing by Stalin;
> and (as mentioned before) they feared
> some trick by the "real masters" of
> Germany to escape the wreck of Nazism,
> and survive to revive the German military
> threat yet again.

Well, some "left" think exactly that happened in the 1950s. And
of course it was the US intention to have the German Army as threat
up again. Against the SU during the Cold War it realy was.

>
> >no apparatus in US maybe, but I know of at least one agent who
> >was active in 1944 until caught by FBI. I heard some rumors that
> >perhaps another group in New York was never caught.
>
> Cite? The original German spy ring (the
> Sebold group) was rounded up in 1941.

Gimpel is quite known in Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Gimpel

If you look at his story, he only got caught because his fellow changed
the sides. For those other group it may gone better.

>
> When the Germans tried to establish a
> new ring later in 1941, year, they employed
> Dusko Popov, who was a British-controlled
> double-agent (codename TRICYCLE). Popov of
> course cooperated (or tried to) with the FBI.
>
> Abwehr Enigma messages were was read
> extensively by the Allies, and there was
> nothing to indicate any unknown German
> agents at large in America. Furthermore,
> all the files of the Abwehr and SD were
> captured at the end of the war, and there
> was nothing in them about any genuine agents
> at large in America, Britain, or Canada.

If they realy got the files and the guys after 1945, do you realy
think it would be known today? Hoover was eager and able to cover
most of his failures. And this guys would be perfect to press in a
black job by FBI or CIA for the next years. They were already trained
and had a lot to lose - prison and expatriation back to a Germany in
ruins. Better to do some jobs, anticommunists they were certainly.

> >> Thus removal of Hitler, by itself, was not considered
> >> sufficient. Germany had to surrender, and the German
> >> army had to be dismantled completely. Many also believed
> >
> >Well, surrender sure. But in case of 20 July 1944, the army would be
> >keept quite intact. The UK (or US/UK) plan was to land allied
> >forces at the German baltic coast and move south to occupy Poland
> >and CSSR.
>
> There was no plan by the US/UK to take
> advantage of the 20 July coup. No one
> in the US/UK had any knowledge of it,
> nor had any plans been made. The Schwarze
> Kapelle did not, AFAIK, have an actual
> plan for dealing with the Allies after
> the coup.

Well, I think that is all not true. But as long as the US/UK
offical documents are not released its hard to prove beyond doubt.
All we have aere accounts of people involved. This could always
be counted as exaggerations and some may be.

>They were German nationalists
> who expected to make a negotiated surrender,
> with Germany keeping much of the territory
> added under Hitler, and German war criminals
> tried and punished by Germany.
>
> Of course this was not remotely acceptable
> to the Allies.

yes, but those circles you mentioned were only part of Schwarze
Kapelle and only part of the arguments in circulation. Imagine,
they had to do some "PR" work to get other conspirators in the boat.
They did so much talk inside Germany that some historians even
wonder why they were not caught before 1944. Some suspect Himmler
was at least peripherial part of the game to overthrow Hitler.

>
> There was no commitment by the Schwarze
> Kapelle to allow Allied troops of any
> country to enter Germany or any German
> occupied territory.

You dont need Schwarze Kapelle. A death of Hitler at 20 July 44 would
bring surrender of Germany within a month. Göring was good with the
west, against the war 1939 anyway. He and Himmler expected to be kept
in power by the allies even in May 1945! They were nuts, but perfect
nuts to sign such a surrender. And the Army only wanted to prevent
an occupation of German soil by the Russians. That the west would
agree on by Rankin-C. There would be less hunt for war criminals then
in our timeline - what already was very small.


> >I saw the UK operations plan.
> >Name not sure, maybe it was RANKINE?
>
> The RANKIN plans were general ideas about
> what to do if Germany suddenly collapsed,
> or withdrew from France, or something.

Yes, RANKIN-C was for a plot like 20 July. This plan went up in
later 1943 after the most secret meeting of Canaris (Chief Abwehr /
Schwarze Kapelle), Menzies ("C" of MI6) and Donovan (Chief OSS) in Spain.
Btw, is this meeting already "official" now?


I found this text, but have no access to it:

JSTOR: Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg in the German Resistance to ...
This emergency plan was ready from September I943, and known as the Rankin
Plan.24 Trott, and Dr Hans Bernd Gisevius, a conspirator in the Abwehr
posted to ...
links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0018-246X(198809)31%3A3%3C629%3ACCVSIT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-Z -


> >Do you realy think the West would disarm Germany under
> >such strategic conditions?
>
> The Allies were determined to disarm
> Germany under any circumstances. The
> debate in the US/UK was between those
> would settle for total German disarmament,
> denazification, and demilitarization, and
> those who wanted Germany stripped of
> modern industry and broken up into minor
> states.

The UK had prepared a plan to begin a war against the SU together with
German forces in July 1945. Thats why there was initialy only partial
disarmament of German forces in UK occupation zones. There the UK
authorities even accepted death sentences of German military courts to
deserters (found hidden and protected by anti-nazi resistance) and allowed
their execution. In a case they even gave them the rifles for doing it.
It changed in June by US intent to have SU forces fight against Japan
in the east.

I think for FDR, the public and most soldiers WW2 was a fight against the
Nazi cruel. But for Churchill and later Truman it was rather a power game
with Stalin. Imagine what Churchill said after the war, that the west
may have killed the wrong dog? It said all about his set of mind.
And that the public did not accept his view said a lot about them.
The public in 1946 saw Yalta as much less of a problem then the Nazis
or a WW3. Very right, I think too.

> >This episode with Goebbels and Hitler I read in more detail.
> >My conclusion (and that of others) was that he had prior knowledge
> >of FDRs death. And it may well be of an assassination attempt. I heard
> >speculations about FDRs death several times. The most interesting
> >piece I found by Fletcher Prouty: JFK (1996), p. 16f. Its from FDRs
> >son:
>
> Prouty was a crank, devoted to lurid conspiracy
> theories. And Elliot Roosevelt was a flake.

it was neither about Prouty nor Elliot but Stalin. Prouty was the
most informed military/ intelligence man ever to go in public in the
20th century. You should take a look in his book "JFK" before you
decide opinion on him. I did. I was impressed how much hard to find
information I got there!



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