soc.history.war.world-war-ii

SENECA@argo.rhein-neckar.de wrote:

>
>Several. The Stauffenberg plot was in contact with US/UK via a german
>OSS agent parachuted back to Germany.

Cite? AFAIK, the Allies refused to
have any official contact with the
Schwarze Kapelle. After the Venlo
Incident in 1940, they suspect all
such contacts of being Gestapo
decoys; after 1941, they feared being
charged with double-dealing by Stalin;
and (as mentioned before) they feared
some trick by the "real masters" of
Germany to escape the wreck of Nazism,
and survive to revive the German military
threat yet again.

>no apparatus in US maybe, but I know of at least one agent who
>was active in 1944 until caught by FBI. I heard some rumors that
>perhaps another group in New York was never caught.

Cite? The original German spy ring (the
Sebold group) was rounded up in 1941.

When the Germans tried to establish a
new ring later in 1941, year, they employed
Dusko Popov, who was a British-controlled
double-agent (codename TRICYCLE). Popov of
course cooperated (or tried to) with the FBI.

Abwehr Enigma messages were was read
extensively by the Allies, and there was
nothing to indicate any unknown German
agents at large in America. Furthermore,
all the files of the Abwehr and SD were
captured at the end of the war, and there
was nothing in them about any genuine agents
at large in America, Britain, or Canada.

>> Thus removal of Hitler, by itself, was not considered
>> sufficient. Germany had to surrender, and the German
>> army had to be dismantled completely. Many also believed
>
>Well, surrender sure. But in case of 20 July 1944, the army would be
>keept quite intact. The UK (or US/UK) plan was to land allied
>forces at the German baltic coast and move south to occupy Poland
>and CSSR.

There was no plan by the US/UK to take
advantage of the 20 July coup. No one
in the US/UK had any knowledge of it,
nor had any plans been made. The Schwarze
Kapelle did not, AFAIK, have an actual
plan for dealing with the Allies after
the coup. They were German nationalists
who expected to make a negotiated surrender,
with Germany keeping much of the territory
added under Hitler, and German war criminals
tried and punished by Germany.

Of course this was not remotely acceptable
to the Allies.

There was no commitment by the Schwarze
Kapelle to allow Allied troops of any
country to enter Germany or any German
occupied territory.

>I saw the UK operations plan.
>Name not sure, maybe it was RANKINE?

The RANKIN plans were general ideas about
what to do if Germany suddenly collapsed,
or withdrew from France, or something.


>Do you realy think the West would disarm Germany under
>such strategic conditions?

The Allies were determined to disarm
Germany under any circumstances. The
debate in the US/UK was between those
would settle for total German disarmament,
denazification, and demilitarization, and
those who wanted Germany stripped of
modern industry and broken up into minor
states.

>This episode with Goebbels and Hitler I read in more detail.
>My conclusion (and that of others) was that he had prior knowledge
>of FDRs death. And it may well be of an assassination attempt. I heard
>speculations about FDRs death several times. The most interesting
>piece I found by Fletcher Prouty: JFK (1996), p. 16f. Its from FDRs
>son:

Prouty was a crank, devoted to lurid conspiracy
theories. And Elliot Roosevelt was a flake.

As for the rest of it: FDR's health was mediocre
long before 1945. He was physically inactive due
to his paralysis, a heavy smoker, liked his liquor
(though AFAIK was not a drunk). By 1944, his decline
was becoming obvious. The question of the Democrat
nominee for Vice President was a matter of very great
concern, because nearly everyone believed that FDR
was unlikely to live out another term.

Even in 1940, IIRC, FDR possibly running for a
third term was questioned by some of his family,
who felt that the strain of the job was killing
him.
--
| People say "There's a Stradivarius for sale for a |
| million," and you say "Oh, really? What's wrong |
| with it?" - Yitzhak Perlman |