sci.physics.particle

On Mar 27, 8:08=A0am, kenseto wrote:
> On Mar 26, 4:00=A0pm, PD wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 26, 3:18=A0pm, kenseto wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 26, 12:45=A0pm, PD wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 26, 12:34=A0pm, "kens...@erinet.com" wro=
te:
>
> > > > > On Mar 26, 8:30=A0am, PD wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > No, not a DEFINED wavelength. A MEASURED wavelength. Somethi=
ng that
> > > > > > > > is MEASURED is more real than something that is just DEFINED=
. This is the
> > > > > > > > part about physics that you don't seem to get.
>
> > > > > > > There is no difference between Meausred and Defined when the M=
easured
> > > > > > > value is the same as the Defined value in all frames. This is =
much
> > > > > > > like the speed of light is a defined constant because its meas=
ured
> > > > > > > value for the TWLS is the same in all frames.
>
> > > > > > > > > and this in combination with the measured frequency will
> > > > > > > > > give a constant number c for the speed of light. The defin=
ed
> > > > > > > > > wavelength such as sodium is universal because all observe=
rs define
> > > > > > > > > sodium to have the same wavelength.
>
> > > > > > > > No, they do NOT. I don't know where you got the ridiculous n=
otion that
> > > > > > > > all observers define sodium to have the same wavelength. Whe=
re on
> > > > > > > > earth did you read that? It's just plain wrong, wrong, wrong=
.
>
> > > > > > > No its not wrong at all.....every observer measures and define=
s his
> > > > > > > own sodium source to have the same wavelength.
>
> > > > > > > > > Therefore you must use the
> > > > > > > > > universal wavelength of sodium in combination with the mea=
sured
> > > > > > > > > frequency to determine the speed of the incoming sodium li=
ght.
>
> > > > > > > > > >No amount of "thinking about it" will
> > > > > > > > > > alter that measured fact. It is experimentally determine=
d that
> > > > > > > > > > relative motion does NOT affect the speed of incoming li=
ght.
>
> > > > > > > > > Yes it does when the universal wavelength of the source is=
used to
> > > > > > > > > determine the speed of incoming light.
>
> > > > > > > > > >Dozens of
> > > > > > > > > > experiments designed to look specifically for how relati=
ve motion
> > > > > > > > > > affects the speed of light have *all* shown the reverse.=

>
> > > > > > > > > That's because you are not using the universal wavelength =
of the
> > > > > > > > > source to determine the speed of incoming light.
>
> > > > > > > > That's because what you claim is the DEFINED wavelength is W=
RONG and
> > > > > > > > inconsistent with MEASUREMENT. If what you define is inconsi=
stent with
> > > > > > > > its measured value, then it is WRONG. Period.
>
> > > > > > > Sigh....the incoming light is a new source in the observer's f=
rame.
> > > > > > > The observer will define or measure a new wavelength for this =
new
> > > > > > > light source. This new light source is not sodium....it has a
> > > > > > > different defined or measured wavelength than sodium.
>
> > > > > > You are repeating the same idiocy, Ken. The source IS recognized=
as
> > > > > > sodium, even though it has a wavelength that is different than w=
hat
> > > > > > you think is the "universal" wavelength for sodium.
>
> > > > > No the incoming light is collected by the telescope and send to th=
e
> > > > > grating.
>
> > > > We've been through this before. Your memory is failing you. There is=

> > > > no need for a telescope. A hole is sufficient. There being the absen=
ce
> > > > of anything in a hole, there is nothing in the hole that can generat=
e
> > > > a new source.
>
> > > Without the telescope what star is the hole measuring? Are you saying
> > > that you just point the hole in the sky and get a reading for its
> > > wavelength?
>
> > Yes. Take a paper towel tube without any lens and point it at the sky.
> > Now take a soda straw and point it at the sky. There is nothing in the
> > hole of the paper towel tube or a soda straw that can generate a new
> > source. Such an arrangement is perfectly suitable for a diffraction
> > grating.
>
> Ah....so you are saying that the astronomers are using straws to make
> diffraction grating readings?

No, but those astronomers have learned that adding a lens does not
change the diffraction pattern or the measured wavelengths, because
they've done that lab. See below. (Ken, read first, then talk second.)

>
>
>
> > Now, if you like, you can then *add* a lens to the paper towel tube to
> > collect more light.
>
> Bingo the lens acts as a new source in the observer's frame.

No, it doesn't do anything of the kind. See below. (Read first, talk
second.)

>
> >If you actually do that experiment, you'll find
> > that adding the lens does not change the measured wavelength at all.
>
> How do you know? Did you first using straw to make measurement and
> then add lens to the straw?

YES! Read the paragraph below. This is done as an exercise in freshman
labs all the time. I know this is the case because I've DONE it, and
students in the labs for the classes I've taught have done it, and
they've seen it too. And astronomers know it's true, because they did
the same exercise when they were students and were learning about
spectroscopy. And you should do it too, so that you don't make stupid
statements like this. You have so many excellent universities within
an hour's drive of your house, and it would take 4 months to bring you
up to speed on so many things you simply don't know anything about.

>
> > This may come as a shock to you, but that is a simple test that is
> > done in freshman physics labs across the country every semester. Had
> > you actually done that lab at some point (and I would have thought you
> > did), then you would not be making the ridiculous statements you've
> > been making about the telescope being a new light source and altering
> > the wavelength.
>
> Sigh....I didn't say that the lens is altering the wavelength. I said
> that the lens is a new light source in the observer's frame
> and the
> grating measures the wavelength coming from it.

But the measured wavelength is IDENTICAL to the wavelength coming
through a HOLE. A hole cannot become a new light source, any more than
holding up your hands and making a picture frame with your fingers and
thumbs will make your hands a new light source for the starlight
coming through that. If the wavelength is IDENTICAL between a case
with a lens and a case with just a plain hole, then what you are
saying is stupid. Think about it again.

> Light from the lens is
> like light from a sodium source or hydrogen source at rest wrt the
> grating.
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > > This means that the telescope is a new light source in the
> > > > > observer's frame and the grating defines or measures a new wavelen=
gth
> > > > > for this new light source. BTW the grating defines a wavelength fo=
r
> > > > > every light source at rest in its frame.
>
> > > > Nope, it does not. It is the *pattern*, the ratio of wavelengths, an=
d
> > > > NOT the wavelengths themselves AT ALL that determine the source. You=

> > > > seem to have great difficulty with this and you keep repeating the
> > > > same error.
>
> > > I know that it is the pattern that determines the source. But once the=

> > > source is determined the the speed of the incoming light can be
> > > calculated as follows:
> > > c'=3D (measured frequency)(universal wavelength of the source)
>
> > That is substituting a wavelength for that source that does not BELONG
> > to that source.
>
> No that's doing physics the logical way. Remember the example I gave
> you:
> 1. There is a constant water wave in a pond with a frequency of
> N waves/second and the wavelength is L meter.
> 2. You are at rest wrt the source of the wave so thew arriving speed
> of the waves is L*N meters/second.
> 3. You are swimming toward the source. The arrival rate of the waves
> is (N+n) and the wavelength remains constant L.Therefore the speed of
> arrival of the waves is L(N+n) meters/second
> 4. You are swimming away from the source. The arrival rate of the
> waves is (N-n)/second and the wavelength remains L meters. Therefore
> the arrival speed of the wave is L(N-n) meters/second.

Sorry, light is KNOWN to be NOT LIKE water. It does NOT behave the
same way as water. Repeating the error does not make it right. It is
*measured* to be different. Saying it is still the same when it is
*measured* to be different is not logic. It is lunacy.

>
> >You are removing the *measured* wavelength, and
> > replacing it with a wavelength that applies to a *stationary* source.
>
> The measured wavelength is the wavelength of a new source at rest wrt
> the grating. This wavelength is used to determine the original source
> of the incoming light.

There is no new source.

>
> >It is not the
> > That is called data-fudging.
>
> No it is not data fudging. It is real physics. So live with it.

Sorry, Ken, if you think that's the case, then when you do it in your
published paper, you will be castigated and scorned for being a cheat.

>
> Ken Seto
>
> >Data fudging to produce a result you want
> > to see is a big bad no-no in science and will get you immediately
> > castigated and scorned -- possibly complete with newspaper stories
> > that your grandchildren will read.
>
> > > Ken Seto
>
> > > > > >The attribution to
> > > > > > sodium is NOT based on what the wavelength is. It is based on th=
e
> > > > > > *pattern* of lines and in particular the *ratios* of the wavelen=
gths,
> > > > > > REGARDLESS of what the actual wavelength is.
>
> > > > > That is irrelevant. Every line in a spectrum of an element has a
> > > > > specific defined universal wavelength by every observer.
>
> > > > Nope. Not true. I don't know *where* you read such nonsense. Do you
> > > > remember where you read it?
>
> > > > > You have this bonehead
>
> > > > > > idea that spectroscopists look at a spectrum and say, "If it has=
a
> > > > > > line at 589 nm it is sodium, and if it doesn't have a line at 58=
9 nm
> > > > > > it is not sodium."
>
> > > > > That's correct.....the grating defines a universal wavelength for
> > > > > every light source at rest wrt it. The incoming light is a new lig=
ht
> > > > > source at rest wrt it.
>
> > > > Nope, that is wrong. I don't know where you got such a bonehead idea=
.
> > > > Do you remember where you learned such nonsense?
>
> > > > > >This is a mistake on your part, born out of
> > > > > > ignorance of how spectroscopy is done. If you cannot correct thi=
s
> > > > > > simple mistake in your head, then you will not ever be able to
> > > > > > understand the physics here.
>
> > > > > ROTFLOL.....it is you who need to understand what the grating is
> > > > > measuring. It is measuring the wavelength of a light source at res=
t
> > > > > wrt it.....including the incoming light which is a new light sourc=
e at
> > > > > rest wrt it.
>
> > > > Nope. You are simply repeating bonehead mistakes. You need to unlear=
n
> > > > some of the dreadful misinformation you're carrying around with you.=

>
> > > > It's simply wrong.
>
> > > Assertion is not a valid arguement. The grating does define a
> > > universal wavelength for every light source at rest in its own frame.
>
> > As you say, assertion is not a valid argument. What you assert about
> > what a grating does is not valid. Anybody who has done any
> > spectroscopy will correct you =A0in this mistake. If you are unwilling
> > to acknowledge and correct a mistake, then you have no business
> > attempting to do science.
>
> > PD- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -