humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare

On Feb 23, 2:01=EF=BF=BDam, "Peter Farey" =

wrote:
> "lackpurity" wrote:
>
> > Peter Farey wrote:
>
> > > "lackpurity" wrote:
>
> > > > Peter Farey wrote:
>
> > > > > David Webb wrote:
>
> > > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDWhat "wide-spread *belief*"? There may possib=
ly be a
> > > > > > "wide-spread" belief *now* that the bird is mute (although
> > > > > > even that is certainly debatable), in all likelihood kept
> > > > > > alive (if indeed it exists) by the misnomer,
> >
> > > > > > but I have absolutely no reason to suspect that such a
> > > > > > belief was current in Jonson's time. Do you?
>
> > > > > Certainly I do. In fact Robert elucidated an excellent
> > > > > example of it for us two or three years ago, in Sonnet
> > > > > 54 of *Astrophil & Stella*.
>
> > > > > =EF=BF=BD Dumbe Swans, not chattering Pyes, do louers proue;
> > > > > =EF=BF=BD They loue indeed who quake to say they loue.
>
> > > > MM:
> > > > Sir Philip Sidney was comparing swans to humans.
>
> > > Well done. He was saying that swans possess a certain
> > > characteristic which true lovers also have, but which
> > > pies do not.
>
> > MM:
> > But, you're taking a Sir Philip Sidney quote out of context
> > and applying it to a Ben Jonson quote.
>
> No, Michael. I am answering David's question, =EF=BF=BDwhich was
> whether I had a reason for suspecting that the swan was
> believed in Jonson's time to be mute. He clearly thought
> that there was no evidence to suggest this and I showed
> him to be wrong.

MM:
Look, it is rather obvious that this dialogue is about the "swan of
avon," mentioned by Jonson. Do you agree? Or, would like to split
hairs over that?

> > This must be another Anti-Stratfordian trick. =EF=BF=BDI'll
> > leave it to the sagacity of the readers.
>
> Good idea.

MM:
Yes, let them decide what they think the main issue of this dialogue
is.

>
>
> > > > SPS was saying that True Lovers feel humble, when they
> > > > are in love. They quake, or show some fear of offending
> > > > the beloved. That's what he meant.
>
> > > He sure did. And, unlike those chattering pies, they keep
> > > shtoom. Any idea why he thinks pies chatter, or why he is
> > > comparing them with those dumb swans by the way?
>
> > MM:
> > Tell me what he meant by "chattering pies." =EF=BF=BDIs that an old
> > cliche?
>
> Here's the thing, Michael. If you haven't a clue about what
> the phrase "chattering pies" means, where do you find the
> nerve to lecture us on the meaning of the sentence con-
> taining it?

MM:
Look at it. It's easy, if you understand true lovers. I was quite
aware what "chattering" meant, by the way. I know you often have a
propensity to spin, skate, and dodge, but could we get back to the
main issue, which is really the authorship of the canon?

>
>
> > MM:
> > You picked out that quote, presumably, because it mentioned
> > "dumb swans."
>
> Yes, that is precisely why I picked it out, because it is
> Sidney's use of those words in contrast to "chattering pies"
> that proved David wrong. I could just as easily have quoted
> Thomas Nashe, who in *Summer's Last Will and Testament*,
> made a reference to that sonnet:

MM:
He could have written "Dumb X," and you could fill in the blanks with
other species. Of course, Anti-Strats must be interested in it,
because Jonson mentioned the "swan of avon." That's how it appears to
me, anyway.

> =EF=BF=BD Well sung a shepherd (that now sleeps in skies)
> =EF=BF=BD Dumb swans do love, & not vain chattering pies.
>
> > There is more to what Sidney wrote, as I'm trying to
> > explain.
>
> Well for a start it might help if you found out what two
> of the most important words in it mean.

MM:
I was able to explain the meaning, even without it. It was pretty
obvious.

>
>
> > > > MM:
> > > > He meant that swans are inferior to humans.
>
> > > No, he is saying that they don't chatter, which seems to
> > > me to be an admirable quality.
>
> > MM:
> > I think you've vastly oversimplified what SPS wrote.
>
> I am not commenting upon what Sidney wrote at all. I am
> pointing out that he used the phrase 'dumb swans' in a
> context which showed that the belief that swans were mute
> was indeed wide-spread at the time, which David had
> doubted. To understand this, however, it is *essential*
> to know what Sidney meant by 'chattering pies', and
> since you don't, it is impossible for you to have a clue
> what he is talking about.

MM:
Actually, the meaning that True Lovers are often quiet and reserved
was easily seen even without the chattering magpie phrase. Course, if
you'd rather split hairs over that, as you often do, then enjoy
yourself.

> > He
> > was not supporting Anti-Stratfordianism. =EF=BF=BDSorry. =EF=BF=BDI've
> > already explained a couple of times, what Sidney meant.
>
> See above. 'Impossible'. Is that clear?

MM:
It's not impossible, at all, as I've already explained it, even
without your magpies. That should win more points, not less, in case
you haven't noticed.

Anyway, it is not the main issue of HLAS, your precious magpie issue.
The issue is authorship in this particular thread. That's what I'm
discussing. You can discuss your magpies, or mute swans, or dumb
swans, to your heart's content. Why are you so interested in swans
and magpies, anyway?

> > I've never heard of that expression "chattering pies," so
> > you can explain that one to me. =EF=BF=BDYou've got the floor on
> > that. =EF=BF=BDIs it a British expression?
>
> The language is English, as it was spoken in England in
> the late sixteenth century.
>
> > > > Sidney could have used other species, as well.
>
> > > So why did he pick out swans in particular I wonder?
>
> > MM:
> > Swans are relatively quiet. =EF=BF=BDMaybe that's why?
>
> I think he's got it! By George, he's got it!

MM:
Yeah. Now, by George, let's see you prove your Marlovian fantasies.
Let's see what you've got, proof, or more fantasy.

> > It doesn't mean that a true lover never says anything,
> > however. =EF=BF=BDThis thread has made it clear that swans do
> > make some sounds. =EF=BF=BDDid you agree to that?
>
> This is something that I have acknowledged many times
> already. It is irrelevant.
>
> > > Now, what about those chattering pies, eh. Have you
> > > ever heard a pie chatter?
> > MM:
> > No, I'll admit that I have not. =EF=BF=BDI'll be willing to
> > learn from you what a "chattering pie," is, if you want
> > to explain.
>
> As I said above. Robert Stonehouse has already explained
> it for us. Why didn't you bother to look up what he said?

MM:
I had already posted that it was magpies, about two hours before your
post.

> Astrophil and Stella: sonnet 54
> Robert Stonehouse =EF=BF=BD16 May 2005, 20:06
>
> Newsgroups: humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare
> From: Robert Stonehouse
> Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:06:04 +0100
> Local: Mon 16 May 2005 20:06
> Subject: Astrophil and Stella: sonnet 54
>
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=
=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD=
54
>
> Because I breathe not love to everyone
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDNor do not use set colours for to wear
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDNor nourish special locks of vow=EF=BF=BDd hair
> Nor give each speech a full point of a groan,
> The courtly nymphs, acquainted with the moan
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDOf them who in their lips Love's standard bear,
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD'What, he?' say they of me, 'now I dare swear
> He cannot love. No, no, let him alone.'
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDAnd think so still, so Stella know my mind,
> Profess indeed I do not Cupid's art,
> But you, fair maids, at length this true shall find,
> That his right badge is but worn in the heart.
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDDumb swans, not chattering pies, do lovers prove;
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDThey love indeed, who quake to say they love.
>
> 1. Because I do not indulge in soft love-talk with
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDeveryone I meet
> 2. or make a habit of wearing clothes of colours
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDprescribed for lovers
> 3. or vow to keep certain locks of hair uncut for
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDlove
> 4. or punctuate my utterances with lovers' sighs,
> 5. the ladies of the court, who very well know the
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDmelancholy air
> 6. of men who honour Love with more words than deeds,
> 7. talk about me like this: 'What, him? I will take
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDan oath
> 8. that he can't possibly be in love. No, forget
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDabout him.'
> 9. Go on thinking like that, provided Stella knows
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDwhat I really feel.
> 10. Certainly I do not claim to be a professor of
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD the Art of Love,
> 11. but, pretty ladies, you will see in the end the
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD following is true:
> 12. the real badge of love is worn only in the heart.
> 13. Lovers turn out to be mute as swans, not
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD chattering like magpies.
> 14. Those who fear to speak their love, they are the
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD true lovers.
>
>
>
> This from the OED:
>
> Pie
> 1. The bird now more usually called magpie.
>
> Magpie
> 1. a. A common European bird, Pica caudata, of the family
> Corvidae, having a long pointed tail and black-and-white
> plumage. It is well known for its noisy chatter, and is
> often taught to speak.
>
> Sidney was comparing the mute swan with the chattering
> magpie. Get it?

MM:
Shakespeare wrote the canon. Get it? There was no massive cover-up.
There were no conspirators. There were no liars. Your Marlovian
theory is pure fantasy. Get it?

Michael Martin
Western Sat Guru

> Peter F.
>
> -