humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare

On Feb 22, 2:30=EF=BF=BDam, "Peter Farey" =

wrote:
> "lackpurity" wrote:
>
> > Peter Farey wrote:
>
> > > David Webb wrote:
>
> > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDWhat "wide-spread *belief*"? There may possibly b=
e a
> > > > "wide-spread" belief *now* that the bird is mute (although
> > > > even that is certainly debatable), in all likelihood kept
> > > > alive (if indeed it exists) by the misnomer,
>
> > > > but I have absolutely no reason to suspect that such a
> > > > belief was current in Jonson's time. Do you?
>
> > > Certainly I do. In fact Robert elucidated an excellent
> > > example of it for us two or three years ago, in Sonnet
> > > 54 of *Astrophil & Stella*.
>
> > > =EF=BF=BD Dumbe Swans, not chattering Pyes, do louers proue;
> > > =EF=BF=BD They loue indeed who quake to say they loue.
>
> > MM:
> > Sir Philip Sidney was comparing swans to humans.
>
> Well done. He was saying that swans possess a certain
> characteristic which true lovers also have, but which
> pies do not.

MM:
But, you're taking a Sir Philip Sidney quote out of context and
applying it to a Ben Jonson quote. This must be another Anti-
Stratfordian trick. I'll leave it to the sagacity of the readers.

> > Ben Jonson was not doing that. =EF=BF=BDBen Jonson was hinting
> > at Stratford-on-Avon. =EF=BF=BDHe found a word which rhymed
> > with Avon and it has been used for "mystics," who
> > soar to spiritual heights, as do the swans soar in the
> > sky.
>
> You should have quit while you were ahead.

MM:
You're on the defensive, now. Anybody can do what you Anti-Strats
often do, take things out of context to try and install some impostor
on William Shakespeare's throne.

> > This issue of "mute," is purely Anti-Strat fantasy, as
> > if we haven't had enough of it, yet.
>
> Well there are no doubt some things which certain Strat-
> fordians go on about which others have had enough of, but
> live and let live is what I say.

MM:
Okay. I agree.

> > SPS was saying that True Lovers feel humble, when they
> > are in love. They quake, or show some fear of offending
> > the beloved. =EF=BF=BDThat's what he meant.
>
> He sure did. And, unlike those chattering pies, they keep
> shtoom. Any idea why he thinks pies chatter, or why he is
> comparing them with those dumb swans by the way?

MM:
Tell me what he meant by "chattering pies." Is that an old cliche?
Lovers are quiet, often, when they are face to face with the Master.
That doesn't mean that they are not the authors of a canon. It
doesn't mean that there is a massive cover-up conspiracy. It doesn't
mean that hundreds, if not thousands of people are liars. Do I make
my point clear?

> > When we are in love, it's not a game, and we should take
> > it very seriously. =EF=BF=BDThat's what True Lovers do. =EF=BF=BDWhy do
> > people cry at weddings? =EF=BF=BDIt's a very serious matter.
> > That's why.
>
> Tell me about it!

MM:
You picked out that quote, presumably, because it mentioned "dumb
swans." There is more to what Sidney wrote, as I'm trying to
explain. He wasn't writing with the motive to support the rip-off of
William Shakespeare, nor with the idea of corroborating what Ben
Jonson wrote about the "Swan of Avon." Clear?

> > > I can't imagine what Sidney could have had in mind other
> > > than that swans were believed to be mute, can you?
>
> > MM:
> > He meant that swans are inferior to humans.
>
> No, he is saying that they don't chatter, which seems to
> me to be an admirable quality.

MM:
I think you've vastly oversimplified what SPS wrote. He was not
supporting Anti-Stratfordianism. Sorry. I've already explained a
couple of times, what Sidney meant.

I've never heard of that expression "chattering pies," so you can
explain that one to me. You've got the floor on that. Is it a
British expression?

> > > And
> > > given that he was using the swan as a *metaphor* for
> > > such silence,
> > MM:
> > One might not be dumb, yet be silent. =EF=BF=BDLet's remember that.
>
> Oh I do, I do.
>
> > A True Lover becomes tongue-tied, sometimes, because he
> > doesn't want to offend the beloved. =EF=BF=BDIt doesn't mean
> > that he is stupid. =EF=BF=BDIt means that he is cautious or
> > tentative.
>
> Struck dumb, one might say?

MM:
I'm not taking that bait. From a broader perspective we are ALL
DUMMIES, when we come before a Master.

> > > he must also have considered it something
> > > that his readers would be fully aware of too.
>
> > MM:
> > I've already explained it. =EF=BF=BDIt won't help Anti-
> > Stratfordianism. Sorry. =EF=BF=BD:-)
>
> Ah well, you win some, you lose some.

MM:
Yes. It's hard to win by taking things out of context, and trying to
match them up. :-)

> > > > After all, Thomas Pennant did not christen the bird
> > > > "mute" until 1785,
>
> > I rather doubt that he was the one to name it, only to
> > > report what was becoming increasingly used to identify
> > > it, because of what was generally believed to be a
> > > special characteristic it possessed.
>
> > MM:
> > Not that special. =EF=BF=BDThere are millions of species of
> > life. They are all "dumb," vis-a-vis, human beings.
>
> And some human beings are dumber than others too.

MM:
Obviously.

> > Sidney could have used other species, as well.
>
> So why did he pick out swans in particular I wonder?

MM:
Swans are relatively quiet. Maybe that's why? It doesn't mean that a
true lover never says anything, however. This thread has made it
clear that swans do make some sounds. Did you agree to that?

>
>
> > > Because, as you yourself remind us, it wasn't called Mute
> > > Swan in the days when Sidney referred to its being 'dumb'.
>
> > MM:
> > All species below humans are relatively dumb.
>
> Indeed they are. That's why we refer to 'dumb animals'.
> This doesn't mean they are stupid, however, but rather
> that they are naturally incapable of articulate speech.
>
> Now, what about those chattering pies, eh. Have you ever
> heard a pie chatter?

MM:
No, I'll admit that I have not. I'll be willing to learn from you
what a "chattering pie," is, if you want to explain.
>
> Peter F.
>
> - Hide quoted text -

Michael Martin