humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare

On Apr 11, 4:32=A0pm, Tom Veal wrote:
> On Apr 11, 3:24=A0pm, "Ms. Mouse" wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 11, 4:05=A0pm, Tom Veal wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 11, 2:45=A0pm, "Ms. Mouse" wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 11, 2:51=A0pm, Tom Veal wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 11, 1:01=A0pm, "Ms. Mouse" wrote:=

>
> > > > > > On Apr 8, 4:42=A0pm, Tom Veal wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Apr 8, 9:58=A0am, "Ms. Mouse" wro=
te:
>
> > > > > 2. Your grammatical error, as I thought I had made clear, lies in =
not
> > > > > grasping how the perfect tense is used. To say that the governor "=
hath
> > > > > sent" something means that he has completed all of his actions rel=
ated
> > > > > to the sending. It does not imply that the thing sent has already
> > > > > arrived.
>
> > > > Who suggested that this sentence demonstrates that the boats had
> > > > already arrived? Certainly not us. From that para we derived the
> > > > information that the ships had almost certainly departed The sentenc=
e
> > > > that suggests that they had arrived back in England is "After Sir
> > > > Thomas Gates, his arrival..." This could easily be written either by=

> > > > Hakluyt or Purchas or Strachey himself, and if you think otherwise,
> > > > then I believe you are mistaken. In any case I have no idea what you=
r
> > > > comment has to do with tenses.
>
> > > > > I don't see anything in Strachey's text to suggest that "dismissin=
g
> > > > > the old Werowance, and the other with all tearmes of kindnesse, an=
d
> > > > > friendship, promising further designes to bee effected by him, to
> > > > > which hee hath bound himselfe, by diuers Sauage Ceremonies, and
> > > > > admirations" describes events that took place after the ships sail=
ed.
> > > > > The natural reading is that these ceremonies were part of the proc=
ess
> > > > > of sending "the Kings Sonne Kaita" off to England.- Hide quoted te=
xt -
>
> > > > If you were the father of the King's son Kainta, untrusting of the
> > > > English, wouldn't you want to make sure that your son had actually
> > > > left on the boat before finalising the deal with ceremonies? As a
> > > > mother, I would, and I certainly wouldn't leave until I could assure=

> > > > myself that he had. But it's a minor point.
>
> > > "Hath sent" means that the governor has completed his action of
> > > sending. He has done everything that he needs to do. There is no
> > > grammatical reason why Strachey had to wait until the ships weighed
> > > anchor before writing that sentence.
>
> > > Whatever a modern mother would do, Strachey's sentence doesn't suggest=

> > > that Kainta's father waited until after his son set sail before
> > > smoking the peace pipe (or the like) with the governor. For that
> > > matter, if *I* were an Indian chief, I would insist that the palefaces=

> > > give pledges of peace and good will before I would entrust my son to
> > > their care.
>
> > > Even if your reading were on solider ground, it wouldn't negate the
> > > unambiguous implication of "What this will worke with him, wee know
> > > not as yet, for this was but the day before our ships were now falling=

> > > to Point Comfort, and so to set sayle for England". In your response
> > > to my post, you do not attempt to argue that those words are
> > > reconcilable with a later date of composition. Instead, you claim that=

> > > they represent a common practice of pretending to write at an earlier
> > > time than is actually the case.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I see. So you reject the premise that a narrative can be written up
> > later than the dates of the actual events? Astonishing.
>
> > Mouse- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Of course it's not impossible. There's simply no plausible reason to
> think that it happened in this instance. Surely *you* don't think that
> documents are ordinarily written in such a way as to suggest an
> earlier date of composition than the true one.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

What I think is of no moment. As it happens there are several examples
of such narratives, one of which I believe I gave on your blog, and
since we know that almost certainly Strachey wrote an earlier and
leaner draft, NOT addressed to a lady, there is a great possibility,
later borne out by his introduction to Lawes, that he later enhanced
it to write the narrative that we now know as True Reportory, either
to gain a patron or publication or both. He seems to have been
desperate to do so. We know for a fact that he sent out at least three
copies of History of Travel to people he considered influential
because we still have the manuscripts, but as you said earlier, much
is missing from that era, so it's not unlikely he sent out others. As
far as we know, he received no replies, as the work was not published
until hundreds of years later.

You might also like to look at Robert Dudley's Voyage to the West
Indies, 1594-5. The narrative itself couldn't have been finished
before 1596 at the earliest, as, like in Strachey, it references
materials that were published later. Granted, though, it doesn't have
the immediacy of Strachey. But Fernando Colon's narratives of his
father seem very fresh as he appears to place himself in the action,
although some of the events actually took place when he was very young
and could not have been on the ship. Some of them too, seem gathered
from Ariosto or Erasmus, like Strachey's. It seems to me, in my
reading of narratives, that many of them must have been written or at
least completed after their authors returned home, because of the
sources used. No one seems to express any surprise at this, unless
we're talking about Strachey, who absolutely needed to get that whole
ms back by September 1610 to be considered as a source. It's a pity
Strachey did not know this. He would certainly not have written what
he did in Lawes.

In any case, this is getting old and tired, and so am I. We will take
another look at your blog and respond to the last bits in late spring
or summer, when we will have time for it.

Mouse