humanities.misc

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
> nonsense wrote:
>
>>Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Perhaps it would have been better to pass a resolution condemning
>>>Turkey's suppression of discussion of this (and other) topics. Their
>>>current penal code, which outlaws "insulting Turkishness" has got to go
>>>if there is going to be any meaningful discussion of their past.
>>
>>This is one of the features keeping them out of the EU.
>>But they insist that the EU permit them this while
>>allowing them membership. This is the classic muslim
>>approach to negotiating.
>
>
> That particular law was placed there by the secular government.

Obviously a meaningless distinction.


>>>At some point, the issue of genocide will have to be addressed. But it
>>>would be far better if all parties could engage in a discussion without
>>>fear of reprisals. And giving the Turks some time to ponder their
>>>history will make it far less likely that they will feel that such an
>>>eventual finding will have been forced upon them by outsiders.
>>
>>It never was the Turk's land in the first place. Their
>>attitude is that might makes right, so they must be right.
>
>
> The same could be said about North America and the European immigrants.

Of course. But the American Indian has mostly given up, the
Kurds obviously have not, nor have the Armenians.

> The flame war you'll get in either case will be of a similar size.

What, me worry?

>>>If Turkey still wants to be considered as a progressive Islamic culture
>>>on a par with their (soon to be) partners in the EU,
>>
>>Not going to happen any time soon. The cultural memories of
>>Turkish occupation of Europe are no more forgiving of the
>>Turks than the Turks are of Armenians bringing up that
>>genocide. Ask the Greeks about their religious headquarters
>>and the treatment of Christian clerics at the hands of the
>>government.

> And the British are suing Rome for its occupation. Its all history.
> Learn it and understand it, but quit trying to claim tit for tat or
> mommy is going to take all your toys away and send you to your rooms.

Thanks for this bit of false bravado.

>>>they are going to
>>>have to accept some of these principles like freedom of speech and
>>>dissent.
>>
>>The government might feign compliance, but the people will
>>not. Where do you think that's going to take them. I expect
>>into a civil war and eventually an Islamic Turkish state.

> Let the people piss and moan. Without government backing, it may
> continue. But it'll carry as much weight as the Southerners whining
> about the Civil War. Or Texans crying about independence.

Word salad alert!

>>>Their willingness to drop this article from their laws would be
>>>a better indicator of how future disagreements are to be handled rather
>>>than seeing if we can shove an accusation down their throats.
>>
>>The government of Turkey fears their own clerics. It will
>>not be dropped, but instead Turkey will become increasingly
>>militant and Islamic.

> The clerics didn't ask for this law. Turkish nationalists did.

Yet another meaningless distinction. Turkish nationalists
and clergy are different only in station.

>And this
> is all the more reason to take a stand against it now. Soon, the clerics
> _will_ be asking for laws placing Islam on a pedestal.

Too late, they already have been.

> We are supposed to be setting an example for them based upon our own
> experience. A good start would be:

Examples are of no consequence to people who are directed
by their God.

> "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
> prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
> speech,
> or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and
> to
> petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Islam doesn't recognize the humanity of infidels.

>>It would be a good thing if the US were still in Iraq in
>>large numbers when that happens.

> We're getting our ass kicked as it is right now. I doubt we could handle
> another front.

Just like we got our ass kicked in every military action since
WW2. It takes a resolve to win which we have abandoned. That
does not negate our long term influence on world events and
outcomes.