humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare

MM:
Why don't you go and continue with Crowley? You're not worth my
time.

Michael Martin

On Mar 5, 2:05=C2=A0pm, Dominic Hughes wrote:
> On Mar 5, 12:41=C2=A0pm, lackpurity wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 5, 10:25=C2=A0am, Dominic Hughes wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 4, 10:53=C2=A0pm, lackpurity wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 4, 5:42=C2=A0pm, Dominic Hughes wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mar 4, 3:43=C2=A0pm, lackpurity wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Mar 4, 1:35=EF=BF=BDam, "Peter Farey" emon.co.uk>
> > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > "lackpurity" wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Elizabeth wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > Nashe is accusing the author of Hamlet of working
> > > > > > > > > with or having worked with, a faction of poets. Nashe
> > > > > > > > > would know this well, he was targeted by Mary Sidney
> > > > > > > > > Her Ladyshippe who wrote a verse making fun of his
> > > > > > > > > name, she calls him something like 'Gnashadoccio'
> > > > > > > > > (McCarthy).
> > > > > > > > MM:
> > > > > > > > Preface To Greene's Menaphon
>
> > > > > > > > An excerpt:
>
> > > > > > > > It is a common practice now-a-days amongst a sort of
> > > > > > > > shifting companions, that run through ever art and thrive
> > > > > > > > by none, to leave the trade of noverint whereto they were
> > > > > > > > born and busy themelves with the endeavours of art, that
> > > > > > > > could scarcely Latinize their neck-verse if they should
> > > > > > > > have need; yet English Seneca read by canlelight yields
> > > > > > > > many good sentences, as Blood is a begaar, and so forth,
> > > > > > > > and if you entreat him fair in a frosty morning, he will
> > > > > > > > afford you whole Hamlets, I should say handfuls, of trag-
> > > > > > > > ical speeches.
>
> > > > > > > > MM:
> > > > > > > > I'd like you to explain your POV more clearly. =EF=BF=BDThis=

> > > > > > > > paragraph by Nashe seems to fit well with William Shake-
> > > > > > > > speare of Stratford, Elizabeth. =EF=BF=BDIt also seems congr=
uent
> > > > > > > > with what Jonson wrote of Shakespeare, "small Latin and
> > > > > > > > less Greek."
>
> > > > > > > Nashe's words are widely if not universally believed to
> > > > > > > be referring to Thomas Kyd, a playwright known to be born
> > > > > > > to "the trade of noverint" (scrivener), his father having
> > > > > > > been warden of the Company of Scriveners.
>
> > > > > > > Nashe continued:
>
> > > > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDBut O grief! *Tempus edax rerum*, what's th=
at will last
> > > > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDalways? The sea exhaled by drops will in co=
ntinuance be
> > > > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDdry, and Seneca, let blood line by line and=
page by page,
> > > > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDat length must needs die to our stage, whic=
h makes his
> > > > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDfamished followers to imitate the kid in Ae=
sop,
>
> > > > > > > Another clue?
>
> > > > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDwho, enamoured with the fox's newfangles, f=
orsook all
> > > > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDhopes of life to leap into a new occupation=
, and these
> > > > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDmen, renouncing all possibilities of credit=
or estimat-
> > > > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDion, to intermeddle with Italian translatio=
ns...
>
> > > > > > > Kyd (unlike Nashe) did not go to university, but did go to
> > > > > > > Merchant Taylor's school, where he learnt both French and
> > > > > > > Italian, and later used this ability to translate works of
> > > > > > > both Robert Garnier (his Senecan play *Cornelie*) and
> > > > > > > Tasso (*Il padre di famiglia*).
>
> > > > > > > The reference to Hamlet is therefore usually taken to be
> > > > > > > an earlier version of the play (the 'Ur-Hamlet') written
> > > > > > > by Kyd. Isabelle Kittson Brown, cited by Elizabeth, is
> > > > > > > I think very much in the minority on this one.
>
> > > > > > > Peter F.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > MM:
> > > > > > "that could scarcely Latinize their neck-verse, if they had need=
."
> > > > > > Thomas Nashe from preface to "Menophon."
>
> > > > > > What is neck-verse? =C2=A0My understanding is that it includes s=
piritual
> > > > > > teachings. =C2=A0One website said that it hints to the clergy. =
=C2=A0
>
> > > > > You really don't know what is meant by "neck-verse"? =C2=A0And, af=
ter
> > > > > searching the net, the best you can come up with is that the phras=
e
> > > > > includes a spiritual teaching and "hints to the clergy."
>
> > > > MM:
> > > > If you want to compete with me, take Hamlet or any other work of the=

> > > > canon, line by line. =C2=A0You will lose. =C2=A0
>
> > > What a silly man you are. =C2=A0This isn't a competition and there is =
no
> > > winning or losing involved.
>
> > MM:
> > Let's see the best that you can come up with. =C2=A0I'm calling you on t=
his
> > one. =C2=A0You implied that you had something "better." =C2=A0So, get on=
with
> > it, or give up, whatever you want to do. =C2=A0Now you say that I'm a si=
lly
> > man.
> > Guess what, I think I can make your interpretations of the canon look
> > silly. =C2=A0Are you ready?
>
> I've already stated that this isn't a competition -- what part of that
> did you or your muses not understand? =C2=A0What you think is of no concer=
n
> to me.
> I should have known better. =C2=A0When you lie down with flea-infested
> cats, you get up flea-infested. =C2=A0And maybe you get prosecuted for
> mistreating them.
>
> > >=C2=A0If we took Hamlet, or any other work of
> > > the canon, line by line, who would be the judge as to the correctness
> > > of our interpretations? =C2=A0
>
> > MM:
> > Is this silly, or what? =C2=A0The readers, of course. =C2=A0They might e=
ven
> > believe you.
>
> They most assuredly don't believe you or your uneducated muses.
>
> > > So far, at least on HLAS, your muse-infested
> > > interpretations don't seem to be passing muster with the sagacious
> > > readers.
>
> > MM:
> > That's why you might have an advantage. =C2=A0Game?
>
> Along with other advantages -- such as rationality.
>
> > > For someone who claims to be the reincarnation of Jesus Christ you
> > > sure are a belligerent and un-christian fellow,
>
> > MM:
> > Sorry, but this whining won't cut much mustard. =C2=A0LOL
>
> No whining -- just a statement of fact. =C2=A0Nothing you can say or do
> makes a bit of difference to me.
>
> > > with your talk of you
> > > "winning" =C2=A0and people losing to you, and also with your self-
> > > proclaimed superiority over others.
>
> > MM:
> > I'm just responding to your challenge. =C2=A0That's what it was. =C2=A0I=
don't
> > think that is belligerent or un-Christian. =C2=A0This is just a discussi=
on
> > group.
>
> It wasn't a challenge -- it was an attempt to point out that your
> muses were woefully uneducated on a point that should have been well-
> known to them.
>
> > > > You need to try to learn
> > > > something from those superior to you, if you want to make the most o=
f
> > > > this life.
>
> > > I always try to learn something from everyone I meet, but you have
> > > nothing worthy of consideration. =C2=A0You listen to the cacophony of
> > > voices in your head, and yet they can't even tell you what "neck-
> > > verse" means. =C2=A0
>
> > MM:
> > I gather that you are superior to me, again. =C2=A0Another challenge? =
=C2=A0As
> > far as definitions go and the writing of Thomas Nashe, we have to give
> > some wiggle room, just as we do with Shakespeare.
>
> You gather wool in your demented carphology, but you have no sheep
> here. =C2=A0All of your wandering fantasies are
> floccinaucinihilipilification=E2=80=94woolly nothings not worth bothering =
a
> hair about.
>
> > For example, "Crowner's Quest Law," in Hamlet, has probably been
> > misinterpreted for 400 years. =C2=A0Did you know what it was, before I
> > explained it? =C2=A0I think since you are so much superior to me, that y=
ou
> > ought to interpret the canon, as I have been doing. =C2=A0I'm willing to=

> > learn from those superior to me. =C2=A0Game?
>
> I must have missed that particular post. =C2=A0I usually skip your
> fantasies. =C2=A0Unlike you, I have never claimed to be superior to
> anyone. =C2=A0I'll decline your silly invitation "to interpret the canon"
> as you have been doing. =C2=A0I think your interpretations are ridiculous.=

>
> > Oxfordians have been whining that Shakespeare couldn't have been the
> > author because he didn't know enough about law. =C2=A0He was expert on
> > Karmic Law, and Master's Law (Crowner's Quest Law.)
>
> Did the muses tell you all of that -- the same one who didn't know the
> meaning of "neck-verse"? =C2=A0If so, maybe you should question your faith=

> that your pronouncements are factual.
>
> > You better talk to your muses again and find out why
>
> > > they led you astray on this particular subject.
>
> > MM:
> > Take something from the canon and interpret it. =C2=A0Why hide your
> > knowledge from us? =C2=A0
>
> I haven't hidden any knowledge from anyone. =C2=A0In fact, I merely pointe=
d
> out to you that your muses were sadly ill-informed on a subject of
> common knowldege.
>
> > Don't be shy? =C2=A0Maybe I can learn something from
> > your knowledge of it?
>
> > I was not astray on that neck-verse, although you're trying hard to
> > make it appear that way.
>
> You shouldn't lie -- God doesn't approve. =C2=A0You and your muses were no=
t
> even close on the meaning of "neck-verse" and no amount of after-the-
> fact selves-justification can alter that fact.
>
> > I'm just giving Nashe more wiggle room than
> > you. =C2=A0Do you always take things literally, or do you give some wigg=
le
> > room for cryptic messages? =C2=A0Neck-verse in Nashe's context has to do=

> > with spiritual teachings in general, not your pigeonholing of it.
>
> No, it really doesn't.
>
> > Nashe was hinting at all spiritual teachings, not just the one you
> > mentioned, when someone was about to get hung. =C2=A0
>
> No, he really wasn't.
>
> > I guess you need to go
> > back to the drawing boards if you think it was referring to only such
> > an incident. =C2=A0Nashe was clearly writing about competitors to
> > Shakespeare. =C2=A0
>
> Your muse-induced speculations are not facts, any more than Crowley's
> "guesswork" qualifies as fact.
>
> > Shakespeare could understand the spiritual teachings,
> > and the others could not. =C2=A0That's the real message. =C2=A0It really=
had
> > nothing to do with anybody getting hung by the neck. =C2=A0Get it, now?
>
> More muse-infested floccinaucinihilipilification -- go find some sheep
> somewhere else (but don't mistreat them, as repeat offenders get
> stiffer sentences).
>
>
>
> > > > You are out on the periphery. =C2=A0
>
> > > Because I know what "neck-verse" means and you quite obviously did
> > > not, I'm out on the periphery?- Hide quoted text -
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